"Turtles all the way down" refers to an infinite regression belief about cosmology, the nature of the universe. Turtles all the way down refers to an infinite regression myth about the nature of the universe (see Cosmology). ... For other uses, see Believe. ... Cosmology, from the Greek: κοσμολογία (cosmologia, κόσμος (cosmos) order + λογος (logos) word, reason, plan) is the quantitative (usually mathematical) study of the Universe in its totality, and by extension, humanitys place in it. ... For other uses, see Universe (disambiguation). ...

Origin

A reference to this elusive anecdote, preceding Stephen Hawking's usage, is on a recorded talk by the religious philosopher Alan W. Watts, who uses it to humorously illustrate both infinite regress, in cosmological imagery, and the perils of religious/mythic myopia.

However, the most widely known version appears in Stephen Hawking's 1988 book A Brief History of Time, which starts: Stephen William Hawking, CH, CBE, FRS, FRSA, (born 8 January 1942) is a British theoretical physicist. ... A Brief History of Time is a popular science book written by Professor Stephen Hawking and first published in 1988. ...

It is possible that the lady's comment came after Russell's 1927 lecture Why I Am Not a Christian. In it, while discounting the First Cause argument intended to be a proof of God's existence, Russell comments: Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS, (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970), was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, advocate for social reform, and pacifist. ... For other uses, see Astronomy (disambiguation). ... This article is about Earth as a planet. ... Sol redirects here. ... For other uses, see Galaxy (disambiguation). ... For other uses, see Tortoise (disambiguation). ... For other uses, see Turtle (disambiguation). ... Why I Am Not a Christian is an essay by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell in which he explains why he is not a Christian. ... Categories: Wikipedia cleanup | Stub | Philosophy of science | Religious Philosophy | Theology ...

If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, "How about the tortoise?" the Indian said, "Suppose we change the subject."

The origins of this story are uncertain. In J. R. (Haj) Ross's 1967 linguistics dissertation, Constraints on Variables in Syntax, the scientist is identified as the Harvard psychologist and philosopher William James. Of the story's provenance, Ross writes: John Robert Haj Ross (born May 7, 1938 in Boston, Massachusetts) is a linguist who played a part in the development of generative semantics (as opposed to interpretive semantics) along with George Lakoff, James D. McCawley, and Paul Postal. ... For the journal, see Linguistics (journal). ... This article is about theses in the academic sense. ... Harvard University is a private university in Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA, and a member of the Ivy League. ... A psychologist is an expert in psychology, the systematic investigation of the human body, including behavior, cognition, and affect. ... A philosopher is a person who thinks deeply regarding people, society, the world, and/or the universe. ... This article needs additional references or sources for verification. ...

I have been unable to find any published reference to it, so it may be that I have attributed it to the wrong man, or that it is apocryphal. Be that as it may, because of its bull's-eye relevance to the study of syntax, I have retold it here.^[2][3]

Additionally, Stephen Fry, in an episode of the BBC's comedy-quiz show QI (Series 1, episode 2), attributes the turtles anecdote to an exchange between an elderly lady and William James. Also, David Sloan Wilson does the same in his book Evolution for Everyone (Delacorte, 2007): 133. In Judeo-Christian theologies, apocrypha refers to religious Sacred text that have questionable authenticity or are otherwise disputed. ... Stephen John Fry (born 24 August 1957) is an English comedian, writer, actor, humourist, novelist, columnist, filmmaker and television personality. ... For other uses, see BBC (disambiguation). ... For other uses, see QI (disambiguation). ... David Sloan Wilson (1949- ) is an American evolutionary biologist. ...

Philosophical allusion to the story goes back at least as far as John Locke. In his 1690 tract An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Locke compares one who would say that properties inhere in "substance" to the Indian who said the world was on an elephant which was on a tortoise "but being again pressed to know what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied -- something, he knew not what."^[4] For other persons named John Locke, see John Locke (disambiguation). ... An Essay Concerning Human Understanding is one of John Lockes two most famous works, the other being his Second Treatise on Civil Government. ...

Henry David Thoreau, in his journal entry of 4 May 1852,^[5] writes: Thoreau redirects here. ...

Men are making speeches… all over the country, but each expresses only the thought, or the want of thought, of the multitude. No man stands on truth. They are merely banded together as usual, one leaning on another and all together on nothing; as the Hindoos made the world rest on an elephant, and the elephant on a tortoise, and had nothing to put under the tortoise.

This article is about the Hindu religion; for other meanings of the word, see Hindu (disambiguation). ...

Citation

The story can also be found in Bernard Nietschmann's "When the Turtle Collapses, the World Ends," Natural History, 83(6):34 (June-July 1974). A version of the story also appears in Clifford Geertz's, "Thick Description: Towards an Interpretive Theory of Culture," in his 1973 book The Interpretation of Culture, with the scientist and old woman replaced by an Englishman and an Indian respectively. This version may be a reference to references in various Indian classical texts, including the myth that Vishnu's second avatar was Kurma, a tortoise on whose back the Mandara mountain rested, or that the tortoise Chukwa supports the elephant Maha-pudma who upholds the world. (Whether this is a Hindu belief or not is subject to debate.) A whimsical allusion to this myth appears in Wilfrid Sellars' 1956 Empiricism and the Philosophy of Mind: This article or section does not cite any references or sources. ... For the song by James Blunt, see 1973 (song). ... Royal motto: Dieu et mon droit (French: God and my right) Official language None; English is de facto Capital London Capitals coordinates 51° 30 N, 0° 10 W Largest city London Area  - Total Ranked 1st UK 130,395 km² Population  - Total (2001)  - Density Ranked 1st UK 49,138,831... For other meanings, see Vishnu (disambiguation). ... This article is about the concept in Hindu philosophy. ... A carving of the Kurma avatar on a pillar at the Vittala Temple, Hampi, India Kurma is also an alternative transliteration of korma. ... Mount Mandara is a mountain which appears in the Samudra manthan episode in the Hindu Puranas. ... In Hindu mythology, Chukwa is the first and oldest turtle, supporting the Earth. ... In Hindu mythology, Maha-pudma is the elephant that the world rests on. ... This article discusses the adherents of Hinduism. ...

authoritative nonverbal episodes... would constitute the tortoise on which stands the elephant on which rests the edifice of empirical knowledge.

Carl Sagan recited a version of the story as an apocryphal anecdote in his 1979 book Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science, as an exchange between a "Western traveler" and an "Oriental philosopher." Carl Edward Sagan (November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996) was an American astronomer and astrochemist and a highly successful popularizer of astronomy, astrophysics, and other natural sciences. ...

Justice Antonin Scalia of the U.S. Supreme Court discussed his "favored version" of the tale in a footnote to his plurality opinion in Rapanos v. United States (decided June 19, 2006):   (born March 11, 1936[1]) is an American jurist and the second most senior Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. ... The Supreme Court Building, Washington, D.C. The Supreme Court Building, Washington, D.C., (large image) The Supreme Court of the United States, located in Washington, D.C., is the highest court (see supreme court) in the United States; that is, it has ultimate judicial authority within the United States... Holding Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals vacated and remanded Court membership Chief Justice: John Roberts Associate Justices: John Paul Stevens, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, David Souter, Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Samuel Alito Case opinions Plurality by: Scalia Joined by: Roberts, Thomas, Alito Concurrence by: Roberts Concurrence by... is the 170th day of the year (171st in leap years) in the Gregorian calendar. ... Year 2006 (MMVI) was a common year starting on Sunday of the Gregorian calendar. ...

In our favored version, an Eastern guru affirms that the earth is supported on the back of a tiger. When asked what supports the tiger, he says it stands upon an elephant; and when asked what supports the elephant he says it is a giant turtle. When asked, finally, what supports the giant turtle, he is briefly taken aback, but quickly replies "Ah, after that it is turtles all the way down."^[6]

Interpretations

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The differences between the two forms of the anecdote point to the difference in its intended meaning.

For Hawking, the turtle story is one of two accounts of the nature of the universe; he asserts that the turtle theory is patently ridiculous, but admits that his own theories may be just as ridiculous. "Only time will tell," he concludes.

For Geertz, however, the story is patently wise, teaching us that we will never get to the bottom of things.

This comparison also reveals a difference between the positivist and interpretive, or hermeneutic approach to the interpretation of myths. Positivists read myths literally and find them false and foolish; interpretivists read them metaphorically or allegorically and find them true and profound. Positivism is a philosophy that states that the only authentic knowledge is knowledge that is based on actual sense experience. ... Hermeneutics may be described as the development and study of theories of the interpretation and understanding of texts. ... For other uses, see Mythology (disambiguation). ... This article is about metaphor in literature and rhetoric. ... Allegory of Music by Filippino Lippi. ... Time Saving Truth from Falsehood and Envy, François Lemoyne, 1737 For other uses, see Truth (disambiguation). ...

The phrase "turtles all the way down", or sometimes simply "a turtle problem" are often used to describe other infinite regressions. For instance, the question of "who polices the police" may be regarded as a turtle problem. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? is a Latin phrase that translates to Who will guard the guards? or Who shall watch the watchers themselves? The question was first asked by Plato in the Republic, his great work on government and morality. ...

The turtle problem also often arises in debates pertaining to creationism, for instance in the debate over intelligent design and its postulated intelligent designer. By raising the question of the need for a designer for objects with irreducible complexity, intelligent design also raises the question, "what designed the designer?" according to critics. Creationism is a religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity or deities (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam), whose existence is presupposed. ... For other uses, see Intelligent design (disambiguation). ... An intelligent designer, also referred to as an intelligent agent, is the entity that the intelligent design movement argues had some role in the origin and/or development of life and who supposedly has left scientific evidence of this intelligent design. ...

Veracity

The anecdote has achieved the status of an urban legend on the Internet, as there are numerous versions in which the name of the scientist varies (e.g., Arthur Stanley Eddington, Thomas Huxley, Linus Pauling, or Carl Sagan) although the rest is the same. For other uses, see Urban legend (disambiguation). ... One of Sir Arthur Stanley Eddingtons papers announced Einsteins theory of general relativity to the English-speaking world. ... Thomas Henry Huxley, FRS (4 May 1825 – 29 June 1895) [1] was an English biologist, known as Darwins Bulldog for his advocacy of Charles Darwins theory of evolution. ... Linus Carl Pauling (February 28, 1901 – August 19, 1994) was an American scientist, peace activist, author and educator of German ancestry. ... Carl Edward Sagan (November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996) was an American astronomer and astrochemist and a highly successful popularizer of astronomy, astrophysics, and other natural sciences. ...

In culture

• In the popular Discworld comic fantasy books by Terry Pratchett, the Discworld is a flat disc that rests on the backs of four huge elephants which are in turn standing on the back of an enormous turtle as it slowly swims through space. In the book Small Gods, the question "what does the turtle stand on?" is asked, and gets the reply "It's a turtle, for heaven's sake. It swims. That's what turtles are for." In his introduction to The Discworld Companion, Pratchett uses the phrase in a different sense, describing the recurrence of the Earth on a turtle in myth as "turtles all the way". Additionally, 'who polices the police' appears several times in Discworld novels, most notably in 'Thud.'

• Stephen King in The Dark Tower series makes several references to a turtle holding up the earth, in various metaphors. Later in the series, he makes it clear that the origin of this metaphor is a play on the incident with the woman declaring that it's "turtles all the way down". The appearance of a palm-sized scrimshaw turtle likewise makes allusions to Pratchett's Small Gods when described as a "tiny god".

• Far-Seer, Part One of Robert J. Sawyer's three-part novel, the Quintaglio Ascension Trilogy, retells the story, replacing turtles with armourbacks (ankylosaurs).

• The phrase appears in Robert J. Sawyer's novel "Calculating God"

• Charles Stross's science fiction collection Accelerando: "Up or down, is it turtles all the way, or is there something out there that's more real than we are?"

• Douglas Adams uses the phrase in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

• Michael Crichton makes a reference to the phrase in his book Prey

• Track 3 of Hallucinogen's album In Dub is entitled "Gamma Goblins ('Its Turtles All The Way Down' Mix)".

• The story is referenced by main character Oskar Schell in Jonathan Safran Foer's 2005 novel Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close.

This article is about the novels. ... Terence David John Pratchett, OBE (born 28 April 1948) is a British fantasy and science fiction author, best known for his Discworld series. ... The Discworld is the fictional setting for all of Terry Pratchetts Discworld fantasy novels. ... This article is about the novel Small Gods; for the concept of Small Gods within the Discworld, see Discworld Gods Small Gods is the thirteenth of Terry Pratchetts popular Discworld novels, published in 1992. ... The Discworld Companion is an encyclopedia to all things Discworldian, created by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Briggs. ... For other persons named Stephen King, see Stephen King (disambiguation). ... For other uses, see The Dark Tower. ... In language, a metaphor is a rhetorical trope where a comparison is made between two seemingly unrelated subjects. ... Scrimshaw is the name given to handiwork created by whalers made from the byproducts of harvesting marine mammals. ... Terence David John Pratchett, OBE (born 28 April 1948) is a British fantasy and science fiction author, best known for his Discworld series. ... This article is about the novel Small Gods; for the concept of Small Gods within the Discworld, see Discworld Gods Small Gods is the thirteenth of Terry Pratchetts popular Discworld novels, published in 1992. ... The cover of Far Seer, the first book in the Quintaglio Ascension Trilogy. ... Robert J. Sawyer is a Canadian hard science fiction writer, born in Ottawa in 1960 and now resident in Mississauga. ... The cover of Far Seer, the first book in the Quintaglio Ascension Trilogy. ... Families Nodosauridae Ankylosauridae Ankylosauria is an infraorder of the suborder Thyreophora. ... Robert J. Sawyer is a Canadian hard science fiction writer, born in Ottawa in 1960 and now resident in Mississauga. ... Charles David George Charlie Stross (born Leeds, October 18, 1964) is a writer based in Edinburgh, Scotland. ... Accelerando (ISBN 0-441-01284-1) is a 2005 science fiction short story collection by British author Charles Stross. ... Douglas Noël Adams (11 March 1952 – 11 May 2001) was an English author, comic radio dramatist, and musician. ... The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy originated as a 1978 radio comedy series written by Douglas Adams. ... Michael Crichton, pronounced [1], (born October 23, 1942) is an American author, film producer, film director, and television producer. ... Prey is a techno-thriller novel by Michael Crichton first published in hardback edition in November 2002 and as a paperback edition in November 2003 by Harper Collins. ... Hallucinogen is the stage name of Simon Posford, an electronic musician specializing in Goa trance music from England. ... The introduction to this article provides insufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject matter. ... Jonathan Safran Foer This American author is not to be confused with the Australian media personality John Safran. ... This article does not cite any references or sources. ...

See also

• Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel
• Münchhausen Trilemma
• Yertle the Turtle
• Kurma
• Avi Bryant and Patrick Mueller, among others, discuss "Turtles all the way down" as a way of thinking about SmallTalk

Hilberts paradox of the Grand Hotel was a mathematical paradox about infinity presented by German mathematician David Hilbert (1862 – 1943): In a hotel with a finite number of rooms, it is clear that once it is full, no more guests can be accommodated. ... Yertle the Turtle and Other Stories is a book containing three stories written by famous childrens author Dr. Seuss. ... A carving of the Kurma avatar on a pillar at the Vittala Temple, Hampi, India Kurma is also an alternative transliteration of korma. ...

References

• Turtles All the Way Down; Prerequisites to Personal Genius (1986) is a book by Judith DeLozier and John Grinder (ISBN 1-55552-022-7).

Judith DeLozier is a trainer and author in Neuro-linguistic programming. ... John Grinder Ph. ...

Footnotes